[dottysue]

This is my first post, so please be gentle with me. I am more used to posting on poultry forums.

My husband and I have kept koi for approximately 20 years with no major problems except the usual ones that newcomers seem to experience. Although we have had them for a number of years, we are novices. We were concerned to note that the white skin on a few of the koi this morning looked a bit pink. We then discovered four fish which appear to have died (some of them only since yesterday and one of them being 28"). We did some tests and found that the nitrate and nitrite levels seems fine. However, PH is 4 and the ammonia level is high. Presumably this is caused by a dead fish, one of which could have gone unseen for some time.

To cut a long stort short, we have done a 50% water change (with the added conditioner) but a number of the fish still seem affected. One in particular (our best fish) is lying on the bottom upside down. Is there any more we can do for it? We wondered about bringing it into the house - we don't have a quarantine tank or anything similar. Can they ever recover from being like this?

[ogawa only]

hi dottysue

your ph is very low , it should be a min of ph7--7.2 but7 .6 would be pretty good .
have you bought any new fish this year , if so when ??? and did you quarenteen them ??
the redness on your fish could be caused be the ph , amonia , nitrite, nitrate, or parasites (super flukes are active at most temps).
could you give us the dimentions of your pond including depth , and do you have the filter's and pupms running , also do you have a bottom drain or pump fed system ??
you fish could be laying on the bottm for many reason's and until i know how your pond set up is , i cant say with any confidence , but the first thing that comes to mind is swimbladder .
if you can give us as much info as poss , as we are all more than happy to try and help .
regards steve

[dottysue]

Thanks for that Steve. I'll try to reply in the same order.

No new fish have been introduced for about 12 years.
The pond is 6' deep - about 3,500 to 4,000 gallons. Unfortunately, we've lost the bit of papers with the exact measurement of water and the frost here has blown the glass front off our filter cylinder.
The pump (1kw?) and filters run all year.
We have a bottom drain for doing water changes.
We have a pump fed system.

At the present time, our main worry is that this particular fish is upside down.
Any suggestions greatly appreciated.

[dottysue]

I've been advised to add some cockle shell in a pillowcase to the filter to try and correct the PH - any ideas where I would buy such a thing? I am in Eastbourne, East Sussex.

[koimaster]

you could try ....

Aqua-mania
249 Seaside, Eastbourne, East Sussex BN22 7NT

p: 01323 738941

home*-*Aquatic Mania

[ogawa only]

you would be better buying the oyster shell already bagged up , theres a good place in sussex called worthing koi , aaron , is full of knowledge .

by the sound of it your gonna need quite a bit , have you checked the ph of your tap water ??

i would say if you havent added any new fish in 12yrs , the fish swimming upside down could be suffering from a swimbladder problem , i would net the fish to make sure it hasn't got any wounds or damage , could you run a full test on your water , and let us know what it comes back with ?
your fish could also be red from the dead fish polluting the water , is there anyway you could get a scrape done as to rule out any parasite's ? if aaron is close enough to you he mabe able to do this aswell .

[dottysue]

Thanks for your replies everyone. I have just re-tested the water and the PH level is now perfect. We did a 50% water change earlier (plus water conditioner) and added some salt (as recommended at the local pond centre). I didn't think it would be corrected that easily. The large fish is still at the bottom of the pond but earlier today we brought it to the top and couldn't see any wounds etc. I just realised as well that I use oyster shell for my chickens so I can use that if necessary. I'll keep you posted. Ta.

[flipp]

Hi dottysue,
keep an eye on them, hopefully they'll be fine now but these fish are notorious for proving difficult to treat. We think we've cracked it but are often disappointed.
Whatever the guys here suggest fish wise, do it, that's the best advice I can give.
Then at least you'll know you did your best.


'This is my first post, so please be gentle with me. I am more used to posting on poultry forums'.

We are always gentle we've been well drug up

[nishikiboy]

Originally Posted by dottysue

This is my first post, so please be gentle with me. I am more used to posting on poultry forums.

My husband and I have kept koi for approximately 20 years with no major problems except the usual ones that newcomers seem to experience. Although we have had them for a number of years, we are novices. We were concerned to note that the white skin on a few of the koi this morning looked a bit pink. We then discovered four fish which appear to have died (some of them only since yesterday and one of them being 28"). We did some tests and found that the nitrate and nitrite levels seems fine. However, PH is 4 and the ammonia level is high. Presumably this is caused by a dead fish, one of which could have gone unseen for some time.

To cut a long stort short, we have done a 50% water change (with the added conditioner) but a number of the fish still seem affected. One in particular (our best fish) is lying on the bottom upside down. Is there any more we can do for it? We wondered about bringing it into the house - we don't have a quarantine tank or anything similar. Can they ever recover from being like this?

It doesn't get worse than this !!!
How on earth can you not know a Koi is dead ???
When did you last look at them prior to the discovery ?
When did you last check the water parameters prior to discovery ?
I'm not being funny ... BUT if you had dead chickens you would notice and surely pick them up ! then investigate the cause !!!!

ABOUT THE WORST THING YOU CAN HAVE IS A SUDDEN DROP IN PH !!!!!
ALSO LONGTERM AMMONIA KILLS !!!
Do you have a bottom drain (s) ?
or is it a submerged pump ?
Either way you need to vacuum that pond, and pdq !
or purge the bottom drain (s) seperately again.
GET RID of any solids !
Get a tub of Envirex, £50 - £55 per 2kg tub !! or if not available Kusuri Super C in gold bag approx £32 per 3kg bag
Also Bactapur Klear ( this is correct spelling ! ) approx £44 per 4 litres
Mix with pond water and put envirex or Super C in filter and pond as per instructions, do twice in first day ( can NOT be overdosed )
After 1st dose then mix Klear in pond water and add to filter and pond as per instructions, but again twice in first day ( can not be overdosed )
You need to get out and get these MONDAY am asap, if it's not done Monday I fear you will lose the lot !!!

The white skin gone pink is 3 things:
" STRESS "
and " Acid burn " from the ph of 4 !!!!!!!!!!!!!
needs to be 7 -7.5 or more up to 8.5
4 is equivalent of hubby pouring a bucket of hydochloric acid in your bath whilst you are in !!!
Also " Ammonia burning the skin, gills and eyes "

I'm assuming your pond is not heated, which is NOT good news re: these products, they will die back with cold,
keep the Bacta Pur Klear in a warm place ( away from kids )
and if you have anywhere warm and secure from kids / pets/ livestock such as boilerhouse, mix a bucket ful of Klear solution and keep warm ready for next dose ( the bacteria in Klear solution will double and double and double in strength if kept warm ! and it is this that will clear the Ammonia !!! )
the Super c / Envirex will biologically clean and make solids safe until flushed away, and also provide an environment for the Klear to work !
You need to be in that Koi dealer's when he opens the door Mon am !

Lithaqua / crushed oyster shell will help with the ph,
also Nt Labs kh up
Good luck

Peter.

[flipp]

Peter, Peter, Peter, we are not all perfect.

dottysue he has a fish thing, don't worry about it and don't take it personally.

What you have to do is ignore the rant bit, the old git knows his onions and there really is some good advice in there.