Showa over 16 months

Limey · 07-01-2012, 09:24 AM

Owning up.... am stealing Davej's method of showing development

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If you don't want to listen to my rambling just take a look at pics

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This is a sekiguchi showa that I bought from Gatwick Koi - the first pic is actually in Garys shop on day of purchase. I take pics when I get a koi home but my pics are usually ummm not that good as you can see

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Going to risk going through my choosing thoughts to be shown the error of my ways

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For me when choosing a showa I look for good balanced pec fin sumi [motogoro?] - hard to see from pics, but maybe in 1 - there is strong sumi right in the knuckle same on both sides and strong and soemthing that hasn't shifted or changed at all since I got it. If it stays the same I wont be disappointed and you need to watch the fish swim to see it properly. Have to take my word its in both pics and pretty much the same

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Next thing I like is a decent hi pattern - I do the thingthats sort of recommended of imagining the fish with no sumi and what sort of kohaku would it be - I am not that critical on this to be honest, what I like is a balance of hi with plenty of white especially on the head. I am looking in my minds eye for a showa and if and when sumi comnes through it will make the koi a perfect showa not a kohaku with sumi

[editors note: in my minds eye the showa will always eventually end up perfect.. one day haha

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Body shape and skin quality are important to me too... buying tosai I absolutely dont mind if it looks a bit lanky - just want to see a balance in the shape if you see what I mean. First pic you wouldn't say what a great body shape

. Skin quality... hard to explain this, I am not looking for finished hi or sumi... I dont mind if the hi is not too intense, in fact prefer it in a young koi... and not worried about lots of sumi, in fact prefer if there isn't a lot BUT what is there that is 'through' I look real close at that sumi - I really want it deep and very strong. You will see there wasn't a lot on the fish but where it was through was super.

Last thing I look at... hmmm... ok will tell haha... anyone that has a dog and went to choose the pup... if like me I watched the pups interacting for quite a while to get a feel for the personality

. I maybe fooling myself but watching a vat of koi swimming often one will jump out to me as being more 'majestic' just a more fluent and arrogant swimming action. [editors note: I did say I use my minds eye in choosing any koi so am likely to weander off into fantasy]

I spent a long time looking at Garys koi.... real quality fish and would have loved a pond full... Doubt Gary will remember but... based on firstly the swim action I was attracted to the fish I got within seconds of seeing it... resisted offer of bowling until I had looked at others... 2 hrs later or so and several cups of coffee... it was bowled with a couple of others and there was never any real contest... I think Gary knew from that first minute what I was going hom,e with

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Ok thats my kind of thought process... here are the pics, the first in the shop as I said on 28th August 2010 size about 23 or so cms.

After a pretty tough winter here it is on May 1st 2011

Update from Nov 20th 2011

Update from yesterday 6th Jan 2012

Changes... well its grown some heh. Personally I dont mind the rate of growth as long as it does grow and improves body shape 'fills out'.

Sumi.... pecs stay the same... BUT take a look at the shoulder in the last pic - I used that 1 deliberately - it LOOKS like the sumi is fading... in my head it isn't fading... what I think [hope

] is happening is the beni is thickening and has sort of pushed the sumi down if you see what I mean. It's only since I got this koi I have started to look at breeder 'traits' and sekiguchi sumi can be slow to come but will usually come strong in the end... for me that is perfect... I kind of think slower to develop sumi comes from deep and will be better for it [?]

Sumi coming through.... don't really see any

Doesn't worry me in the slightest... I like that the beni seems harder defined and stronger maybe, and will be patient for the sumi to come along and finish this fish for good or bad

. I am hoping for some sumi to start coming through and catching up with the thickening beni in 2012 [errr the beni is thickening honest guv :P ]

Okies... you can now shoot down my thought process or help me refine them [even better] but doubt anyone will take my fantasy eye away from me

. All this wonder if and what if is maybe why showa stays my fav variety just ahead of goshiki with kohaku coming up on the rail

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I love this fish and hope I haven't bored too much, and please excuse my pic taking skills... last pic bit over exposed [?] but shows shoulder sumi accurately

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Gazfish · 07-01-2012, 12:05 PM

Hi Dave,

What a great insight on how you select you Showa and all you need to remember is your the one that has to look at it and as long as you like it an are enjoying it then thats cool

The Sumi on the shoulder do you think its receding or its the same size but the fish has grown ?

You have picked one of the hardest fish to grow on as Showa are a right pain as anything can happen and usually does just think of all the things we have to try to get right in a Showa........three colours for a start it hard and to get a perfect one well £££££££££££££££££££££££££

I think the fish will carry on developing along the same lines in you good care

Limey · 07-01-2012, 12:39 PM

Hiya Gaz mate

Am interested what process others go through so thought I would own up heh, dont have the opportunity to hang out real life with other koi nuts in person so hoping to hear what others go through... You actually made THE most important point right at the start that I didn't mention. It is very definitely true in my opinion that the very first thing is 'can I live with and enjoy' that fish, I was sort of saying the things that attract me to that choice. I suppose in part the unpredictability of showa is part of what I get out of koi keeping - maybe why goshiki is a 2nd fav love... then again I am now a kohaku convert and can't actually think of a koi variety I don't like - have a personal different love of chagoi like most of us heh

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Know you have a super showa that you are enjoying as well... and to answer directly on the shoulder sumi... it seems to have stayed pretty much in proportion - so its bigger but only because the koi is bigger, the shape is pretty much the same. However... as a fish gets bigger I think sometimes a definition in the pattern you didn't see or was feint shows up.... Looking at pic 1 and 4, the hi by the dorsal fin is fully joined in 1 - in pic 4 it has seperated a touch... I think that will seperate more. I dont think thats whats happening with the sumi, I look on the sumi as 'growing' but maybe you hit on the reason that it isn't as dense and in fact it isn't hi building [grrrr] but simply the sumi stretching, maybe someone else will put me right ... it will of course fill in and become super

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The £'s for any quality koi you are dead right my mate! I try for best quality for my dosh, and it helps that I buy small pretty much exclusively tosai. If money didn't matter at all I would probably buy a mix of tosai and older more 'set' koi - I know a couple that I like at Migoto-Koi and a ginrin showa at A4 that I think is superb... saw you very capably helping into quarantine that shipment from Darrens end of year trip by the way very impressive mate.. that I think is a bargain price. I balance that on spend against buying 4 ofr 5 decent [hopefully] tosai and getting the buzz of watching what they become - then again I am backing a fish that the breeder says isn't worth keeping after a year, on the other hand it may have been the last one to get the cut before it became the breeders tategoi... yes I play the lottery :P.

Thanks for input Gaz.

Gazfish · 07-01-2012, 12:50 PM

Hi Dave,

For me i tend to try and look at the fish and see certain qualities which i hope will indicate how the fish will turn out.

So i am looking for a good shape and size at Tosai which hopefully indicates it will grow well and keep a fair shape. Then three colours on the head or indication that at some time there will be three colours on the head

This also blends in to the pattern on the fish with good Beni and Sumi placement that i like the look of.

Limey · 07-01-2012, 01:00 PM

Hiya Gaz... well mine has a 'beauty spot' on the head over its right eye that looks a little like a 3rd eye heh - hasn't changed at all but was deep and to my eyes quality from purchase, more will come... honest

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Gaz what sort of shape do you look for? Think in first post I said I don't really mind if it looks a bit 'lanky' - and in fact it did but was nicely proportioned to my eyes and swam well [my thing about pups heh]. If you saw my showa as it is in pic 1 would you have been put off by the shape? Assume all else was good for you.

Gazfish · 07-01-2012, 02:09 PM

Hi Dave,

I missed out something on my last post as i had to take my lad out to a party

One of the things i look at is the price and of course quality as these can be hand in hand

The shape of the fish is hard to look for in Tosai and they are always a risk and in truth your better off buying Nisai which you can sex easier and have a better idea on what the fish will do.

Shape i look for a good strong frame and the arch of the back bone and its size as this can tend (not always) to give you the idea that the fish will have a good chance to grow to a decent size in the correct conditions.

Would i of picked your fish no to be honest but its no reflection on the fish but my preferences and not knowing enough about the breeder and how his fish progress. I also tend to like smaller Beni on fish and i like to have a balance and the three colours on the head. My other preference is i like female fish and its hard to tell from the picture of yours but the frame and shape could it possibly be male ?

Limey · 07-01-2012, 03:22 PM

I would ideally liked to have less hi... but am happy. Yes the 3 colours on head... and my only indication that there will be some is the beauty spot

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Nisai would answer some questions, and would expect to know the sex - getting more into breeder traits, Gary at Gatwick was a mine of knowledge as am sure you know and was very tolerant of me... was like a kid in a sweet shop as I usually am when around quality koi. Is this male or female... can't be 100% certain but I am 75 25 its male. I know the theory of sexing and plan to check in the spring. I am not usually too worried about the sex, almost expect tosai to be male heh... however I would def like this particular koi to turn out to be female. There is no doubt that a big fish is almost always much more impressive as a female. The girls are always better.... thats just for the mrs

. Will update sex and pics in spring... 3 to 1 a female odds on male

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When you look at your showa and then mine its almost like yours has female and mine male all over them ... maybe we should arrange a date for them on the 14th Feb

Gazfish · 07-01-2012, 03:42 PM

Hi Dave,

Yes Nisai is easier and sexing much easier but knowing the breeder is a big insight into how fish could turn out and any of their traits.

Take Takigawa fish many of his Tosai and Nisai look very long and slim to start of and many would see this as an indication that they are male but in fact they are female. Now the beauty of this is that if you can get a slim looking female fish when it grows there is a good chance that if it gets to a good size it will have a good shape and also a good indication for the longevity of the fish. So give it say 5 or more years and you've got a stonking fish......with a bit of luck

Davej · 07-01-2012, 10:08 PM

Dave

What a great post, it's hard at times to put things down in writing but you captured the buzz, enthusiasm, hopes and dreams that we all get when picking a new babe - spot on pal.

The great thing about Gary is there's no rush, no pressure, plenty of chat and great hospitality.

Beni was looking a bit weak towards the back end in pic2 but seems to have thickened up in pic4 - happy days.

Patience by the bucket load with Showa, a fish that frustrates but on which we can have dreams.

Dave

Limey · 08-01-2012, 09:16 AM

Gaz that is a brilliant piece of info mate! When I was in the hobby years ago it was dealer rather than breeder - well in the main. Peter Waddington peaked some interest in me with his koi kichi book - and to be honest it was the name Dainichi that would be mentioned in whispers heh but cant remember any others. Very different now and adds a lot, that info you just gave is gold mate. Internet availability now helps a lot too.

Davej - thanks my mate

. It was your posts that made me want to do more on how our koi develop and what goes into choice. See a couple doing it and hope it expands. We do it with the G & S and think we all enjoy that, but love to see a new proud owner putting their fish up and then updating. We all have hopes and dreams of our fish maybe sometimes we don't say ok this is it then and now as some might say hey what a dumb choice heh... its a real learning experience I think success and failures.

Beni... yes, seems good and strong now. Beni is something that is a worry in the back of my head with showa... this one has a bit more than I would ideally have liked but I do like the pattern - its all down now to what sumi ends up coming - the head is vulnerable to having all white swamped as Gaz said would have liked more there. Depending on head sumi to make the head interesting.... lottery ticket time again

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I get tempted by nisai occasionally... but get such a buzz watching a koi develop... plus a quality tosai with expectations is cheaper than what it will be a year later when my choice turns out to be spectacular... which they always do haha

. Female or Male is one thing as you pointed out that should be able to be answered at Nisai and that is a pretty big thing. Don't tell Gaz am feeding female hormones.... [stole them from Pondys personal supply

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Gary at Gatwick Koi like you said is a great guy with super fish - and so knowledgeable I learned a lot. My kind of dealer... lots of coffee lots of info and great koi and you can hang long as you like zero pressure he has a hobbyists enthusiasm... same with Dave at Migoto-Koi. Just wish they were both closer to me heh.

Showa are so damned tricky like you said - and long term, way I look at it the hope stays alive longer

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